I posted the quote shown below on my facebook wall and there was a lot of commenting going on between me and a friend (Non-Theist Vs Theist). What I am posting right now is as the debate stands on Apr 5, 2011 @ 0530 GMT, I will update this post as it progresses!
“Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.”
-unknown
Friend: The way i see it, 1400 years ago a Prophet preached to the people that they must let their beliefs go, that they must re-evaluate the meaning of life and their relationship with the Hereafter.
At the time, this was not orthodox thinking but rather the most revolutionary concept that the arab world had ever had to deal with. It not only whittled down the number of dieties to a single one, but also questioned the concepts of tribal loyalties, endorsed personal repsonsibility rather than tribal and did away with the hierarchy that was prevalent at the time.
This was not a faith for “yes-men” but rather a faith for those who could not accept the status quo. And that is what it remains to this day even though salvation peddlers the world over would have you beleive that the current orthodoxy espoused by religious power-brokers is the “only true islam”.
Islamic theology gained its adherent by being different and always quetioning the accepted beliefs of the time. And that is something that remains to this day.
allah promises mankind that the Quran holds all the answers to humanity. Why would God promise something like that if the Quran could not hold up against even the most outrageous and revolutionary thoughts?
That is where my argument about the weak faith of the islamic orthodoxy comes in. Instead of searching for new answers to the new problems and issues faced by humanity every day, these religious power-brokers seek to silence the questions and the doubts. they do this because they have painted themselves into a corner. They simply do not have the capacity to find all the answers on their own and therefore discourage those questions that they cannot answer themselves. On the other hand they cannot allow individuals to find the answers themselves so instead they simply try to eliminate questions.
Islam is and will always remain the most modern religious text in existence with both the oldest and the newest wisdom encapsulated in it. That means that it will be able to give answers to the questions of tomorrow just as easily as the questions of yesterday. However that is the Quran, the Book of Allah.
The clergy, the mullahs , the salvation peddlers, simply will not be able to keep up and that is why they will slowly but surely lose significance as muslims take back the right to interpret the faith personally rather than relying on paid individuals who have a vested interest in the interpretation of islamic Law.
Me: You certainly have not understood the depth of the quote.
Friend: c’mon this is just one of the most famous 101 Atheist Quotes ….too general a way in denouncing religions…
Me: religions are just old stories written by bored old men… its not an atheist thing.. even an agnostic would say this… actually any sane rational thinking person wouldnt believe in religion….
anyway if thats what you feel you can push it off that way!!
Friend: Atheism existed ever since there were religions….so any religious person can write off atheism as old fables written by insane irrational old men….why would u think that Atheism is unquestionable? prove me that my religion is wrong..i will sure join you in your cause….let’s start from the basics of my religion…
Me: You got it all wrong, unlike religion atheism or agnosticism does not follow a book/teachings or something someone else said. It exist simply due to the ability of a human being to question. Contrary to what you feel I or non-believers do not criticize one single religion, they criticize/question all of them!
No one ever said atheism/agnosticism is unquestionable!! (Faith means to believe without questioning.)
If religious people kept their religion to themselves then I or others would not have to say such things in public. But belivers make it a point to preach theirs to others cos they feel theirs is right. Absurd to say the least!!!
Most people have boxed thinking pattern which is wrong. Trash the box you have labelled ‘religion’.
Friend: sorry 4 the late reply…my lap crashed…luckily 4 me my calculator fell down on an electric wire and turned it self in to a brand new sony vaio with windows xp preinstalled..more than that my finger tip access was preloaded in that….WOW….now that is possible by Probability theory let alone universe and earth, even if a single cell came in to existence by itself.
faith doesn’t mean blind faith….and doesn’t require out of the box thinking…just a basic capacity to see a situation from more than one perspective..
since i got a new lap out of my calc…we can continue our debate…lets start from the basic point where all religions converge….creation of life by a super natural power GOD… how do atheist’s believe life started?
Me: No worries about the late reply. Just to make sure that there’s no misunderstanding, I am not here to make you loose your faith. The purpose of the comments and posts on my wall are merely to get people to think.
I do not represent anyone else i.e. what I say here is not for all atheists or agnostics. I do not like generalization as it calls for unwarranted assumptions.
Evolution is proved beyond doubt by science but it does not answer your question of ‘How it all started?’. You have to look at like this, what human beings know RIGHT NOW was not known 10yrs back and what was known 10yrs back was not known 20yrs back. So we are on a path of education, awareness or discovery where we know some more about ourselves or the world/universe or just simply anything and everything around/in us. Science might not be able to give you all the answers right now but as time goes by we will surely know more.
I do not know how life started and it does not bother me that I do not know. Unlike religious people I do not claim to know it (here I generalize as ALL holy texts provide information of the creation day/event). The biggest difference is that I am ready to accept that I DO NOT KNOW.
What part of the creation of the world or universe matters to anybody’s day to day life? Why cant people just live and let live? Why do you need a promise of after life for living a good life right now?
Friend: Interesting disclaimer!!!
I always used to think that how strange it is that humans don’t have any other species or animals that are even close. We are by far more superior than any other insect, animal, or plant on this Earth. Comparing a human to an animal is like comparing an Aeroplane to a bicycle.Humans use their brains in much more complex ways- The cognitive abilities of a human compared to an animal is incredible. Humans can critically think, invent, find solutions to problems, and much more. Animals are much more narrow minded. They are more focused on their specific abilities. A Lion looks for prey all day. They never stop to think of a more efficient way of doing things. The bear never creates a net. They find something that works, and will continue doing it. Humans will always seek out more efficient ways, and even invent complex tools.We can create machines and computers that help us to do work more efficiently. Even the most complex animals do not share this feature. The only tool you will likely ever see an animal use is a stick or a rock. And even then they look confused and clumsy with it.
Microevolution (one species of bird to another closely related species) has been fairly well established. But no natural mechanism has been even been suggested to explain how macroevolution (from reptile to bird, for example) could possibly have happened. Hence Microevolution cannot be extrapolated to explain macroevolution.
For many years, even I accepted Macro evolution since it seemed to make sense and explain the evidence, even though I knew that it was a only a “theory” and not a scientific fact. But Scientists have always doubted the sufficiency of Darwin’s theory, or have accepted it mainly because they couldn’t think of a naturalistic alternative.
Today I am surprised to find that the same examples that were cited 20 years ago when I was in school are still the best evolutionists have to offer: the peppered moth, sickle-cell anemia, etc. I had expected that by now there would be many more clear examples and much more “proof.” but “NO”.
Even the production of a new animal species in nature has yet to be documented.
The theory of natural evolution proposes that over millions of years, the universe and life on earth naturally proceeded from chaos (disorder) to the amazing degree of order we observe today. Remember the cartoon version of evolution…the “march of progress” which suggests life goes from simple to complex (where “complex” = “human”). well this is totaly in conflict with the “second law of thermodynamics” which describes the natural tendency of things to progress from order to disorder.
In other words, the universe is “running down.” so it’s time evolution is written off as story written by bored old men.
”"”"”What part of the creation of the world or universe matters to anybody’s day to day life? Why cant people just live and let live? Why do you need a promise of after life for living a good life right now?”"”"”"”"
After watching various channels about animals, one thing is clear, Almost all animals are ready to be on their “own” very shortly after birth. From birth, they immediately begin doing things that have been pre programmed into their minds.Many animals can stand and walk just minutes after birth. Yet it takes humans almost a year or more to learn how to walk. Animals can hunt and kill food almost immediately in many cases. Some breast feed for only a few days, weeks, or months. They can then go out and capture their own foods. Humans, however, must be fed for months, and then years by our parents.
Animals from birth know what foods to eat and how to eat them. They know how to reproduce, where to migrate, and more. Even a baby turtle comes out of it’s shell and immediately knows to swim towards the ocean.
In contrast, most humans would die if they were not provided for until the age of about 12-16. We wouldn’t know how to do anything. How many 10 year old children do you think could survive in a forest or desert island?
Humans, however, spend a lot of time thinking of the future. We think about ourselves and how we relate to life. We think of what happens when we die.
Humans feel a sense of right and wrong and good and evil. We all have a basic conscious. Animals kill and never think twice. They kill for food, and they kill based on instincts. However, animals do not kill out of evil meditation. They do not stop to think about if they have “sinned.” When a human kills, it is out of evil meditation. We know better, but we murder someone anyways. That is a huge difference. Animals kill purely to eat, or to defend themselves.
The point is we are mostly driven on conscious, we are aware of “self,” and contemplate the afterlife.
In short – All livingbeings in earth are designed to do specific things for the Earth and Universe we live in, every person has a specific role to play – in animals it is preprogrammed and Human’s needs to be taught.
So the answer to your above three question’s is only because you need to be taught your specific role since you are a human being”.
Rest of the things can be linked to our college days- that we all study, then we write exams, some pass and some fail, still every one moves ahead – but it changes the course of your life and you reach unknown shores.
Me: Comparing humans to animals is not the case of apples and oranges! While the mental part is what you said, the physicality is similar but not same! As you have said humans are much more superior to any other being on this earth. We are able to rationalize things and make sense of nonsense but this does not prove that we were separately created i.e. as holy texts claims!
We as humans belong to the Animal Kingdom and are mammals. We are of the highest intelligence and dominate this Earth in terms of our intellect, amongst other things.
The theory of evolution is not in conflict with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, “No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body.” [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25]. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, “The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease.” Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. You are misinterpreting the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.
However, you neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?
Simply put, evolution is the result of changes in genetic code. The genes encode the basic characteristics a life form will have, and there is no known mechanism that would prevent small changes (microevolution) from ultimately resulting in macroevolution. While genes can vary significantly between different life forms, the basic mechanisms of operation and change in all genes are the same. What biological or logical barriers prevent the former from becoming the latter?
In real life, lesser animals exhibit compassion and altruism all the time!
Those things are useful survival traits, honed by millions of years of evolution — working together to keep people you care about (and likely share a lot of the same genes with) helps the perpetuation of those genes; and encourages them to extend the same altruism to you.
Man has adopted a code of behavior which enhances his chances of surviving in a society, those that did not have such codes are no longer here, nothing magic about it.
Our feelings, emotions and morality have functions. For example, the function of love is mating and caring about the offspring.
All the principles we considered “noble” came about by means of evolution. For example, how do we know killing is wrong? Because we don’t want to be killed ourselves. We can’t let people freely kill each other because then nobody would feel safe.
I’ll give you an example: a long time ago, there were some groups of primitive people that allowed murder among themselves, and others that didn’t. After some time the former obviously died out because of all this killing, so what was left were those groups with rules. This is how “morality” was created according to evolution.
Look at piranhas. They seem to have morality — they never harm each other. But is it religious for them? No, it’s just what lets them survive.
If you read your own comments, you can understand why I said out of the box thinking is needed if you want to break away from the so called farce ‘Religion’. You are debating me on the topic of religion but none of the comments you have said proves anything it claims.